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Post by babysitter on Nov 29, 2007 19:04:59 GMT 1
Ian H, I personally don't need to know, I couldn't care either way, I'm out of it oficially. All I was asking for was a summary so that SUPPORTERS, not COMMITTEE OFFICIALS, can see exactly what is required and why their Team may suddenly see a change in Playing Staff for Budgetary reasons. On the subject of Deeping, I agree it's great there but even they were disappointed at the things that they were still asked to do, from the horse's mouth by the way. Gerrard..all these Premier all seater stadiums have just led to fans standing at games and Clubs doing nothing about it. Nobody has still answered my original question of a few weeks ago, although I should get an answer on April 1st (how very apt), as to how the League will cope with about 30 teams in Div One? I too have been at games where League Officials have been there and will not be forthcoming with a straight answer to a question...send us a letter... is the common response. A Referee recently turned up for a game only 45 minutes before a game and then proceeded to go for his pre-match fag, only to report both teams for late team sheets! The League have duly issued the Fines! The assessor was disgusted by the Ref's attitude, was it in his report. Give help Ian H, not hide behind your keyboard, or give evasive answers when asked a direct question.
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Post by ianh on Nov 29, 2007 20:17:19 GMT 1
Babysitter, you know me, I am at 2 or 3 games a week, as most of us on the committee do, I walk round most grounds speaking to officials and spectators, I take the Job seriously, and try to visit Lincolnshire clubs more than the other clubs, as I obviously feel an affinity towards Lincolnshire. (in fact Blackstones is where I should be Tuesday) So I think, to say that I hide behind a keyboard is very unfair. 30 teams in division one, Just wont happen and if you think about it you will realise why. As for referees, I cant answer that if a complaint was put in I am sure the FA will do whats needed. So you know who I am, I don't know you, so come up to me and ask me on Tuesday if you want, but don't accuse me of hiding
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Post by babysitter on Nov 29, 2007 21:02:13 GMT 1
If 30Clubs in Div One just won't happen, what will happen to the Clubs that WILL (your management minutes) be relegated if facilities not up to standard by 31st March? Also, as you're on the Management Committee, the "thing" about the Referee concerns the UCL Fines Schedule NOT the FA, you should know these things. You also state that grants are available, how long did it take Sleaford to get their £1 mill? Was it from Stadia Improvement Fund, which is very limited I understand and very long winded, or a multi sport fund that is totally different to what most Premier Division sides will be looking at. I guess that most Clubs that need to do work will be looking at between £5k and £10k but some Clubs, and there are several that I know about, could well be looking at £50k! Be realistic, who can find that money, and get the work done in 4 months? I'm being honest. I've been around the UCL for over 25 years and it just won't happen. Yes, it's been on the cards for a few months now but most Officials at Clubs already put in hours and hours, as you well know, and this extra time and finance just won't happen at most. You used to be a fox but now you're in the pack, you should understand more than most.
*I understand that Blackstones tried to save you a trip on Tuesday by requesting a postponement of their game with St Ives as both teams are representing the UCL in the F A Vase the following Saturday. The request was turned down by the Fixture Secretary as St Neots are not involved. (Whoops, sorry) * a bit slanderous, dont you think!! Just be careful what you write.
A backlog of games was given as the Official reason, although there have been several free weeks prior to this.
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Post by railwatcher on Nov 29, 2007 21:25:50 GMT 1
Thats OK then, I have no self interest in the cost of one ground; very good luck to them; others might not be so fortunate though- longer established UCL clubs with proud histories. I believe that I speak fairly well informed on the costs to the league clubs, so no one should be suprised at the reality -does this suprise you? then please consider the plan you have no doubt compiled.
You will see that I have discounted Sleaford and two others in my estimation, thats always assuming that the works are going to be of a good standard to offer any benefit and take into account the goodwill of the clubs' volunteers who are going to be working overtime.
I see items in certain grounds where 'improvement notices' should be served to rectify shortcomings that are evidently deemed to satisfy currently. Remember my previous statement about history; standards as difficult as it is, but they are not being routinely kept up.
Ah so u r coming round to seeing things my way that the picture for clubs is not satisfactory with 'mates' giving bum information, better collectively from the horses mouth I say. Why the resistance to a sensible idea perhaps because its all too short a timescale?
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Post by gerrard720 on Nov 29, 2007 21:30:05 GMT 1
1. The point I made was that seating was obligatory - I'm not fussed about the impact good or bad. However, while we're at it - categorically a good idea, absolute paramount importance is the safety of spectators. I'm a liverpool fan and a safety consultant for the design of buildings (including stadium experience within our consultancy) and there's simply NOT an argument against all seaters. I'll happily explain all the justifications if you want but not on this thread.
2. 4 Months is how long it takes to build 24 storeys of core in a skyscraper if Bovis are to be believed on Walbrook Square - putting in some concrete and turnstiles doesn't seem that impossible. If the deadline has been about for "some months" - that's a minimum of 7 months. Bovis would be cladding in that time............
3. My simple point is that deflecting from responsibilities to keep up to standard because "it's always been the way" is, well, frankly, backwards.
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Post by pyromaniac on Nov 29, 2007 21:34:20 GMT 1
I guess that most Clubs that need to do work will be looking at between £5k and £10k but some Clubs, and there are several that I know about, could well be looking at £50k! Be realistic, who can find that money, and get the work done in 4 months? I'm being honest. Clubs have been aware of the 31st March deadline long before now, so having to "get the work done in 4 months" is in some cases bad luck on them for ignoring it in the past. On the 15th September the UCL Management minutes were emailed (the first set to be circulated I believe) which clearly alerted people, and I'm fairly certain that some months prior to this notification would have been given to clubs. Particularly as last season's handbook contained a basic grading chart and said it was going to be mandatory this season. Admittedly some of the requirements can be tricky to meet if not already in place, due to cost (and possibly planning). Other aspects though are relatively inexpensive to fulfil, and may as such be required under the existing requirements (though I'm not sure how well enforced these were).
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Post by railwatcher on Nov 30, 2007 11:15:14 GMT 1
Lets cut to the chase boys, enough sniping and mis-understandings.
Babysitter we seem to have quite a lot in common as 'informed' people, who have been around for a very long time a bit of the backbone of the league possibly, not just a few years, and have a handle on what is reality, I guess our clubs' have a lot in common. I, like you, are looking forward but the less informed have no idea, it is a struggle for many (all) clubs, people forget the Harrowby's of the world that enter the UCL poor and inadequate facilities and still can't cut the mustard we sweep them under the threadbare carpet. I want our league to be stronger than that.
The main issues I am making is for a club that has considerable work to do, as mine has, how are they actually going to be able to carry out the work whilst the season is ongoing? CDM Regulations etc. these are part of REAL problems facing my club, despite Gerrard's comments about Bovis which is nonsence, I should have thought he should have a better understanding of the issues with H&S in Construction and the liabilities, we keep hearing about clubs providing a safe enviroment for spectators, players, officials etc. well we can't provide that when we have to demolish substantail parts of our buildings and stand that don't comply currently. Can I make it any clearer - have the Management Committee listened? not at all! Do the BBC still Challenge Annekka? mmm
We will have facilities in place before next season but not 31st March 2008, and yes we have a very professional business plan and a cost plan of £ 160k now tell me it is easy and timescales are realistic, knowing our facilities and how everyone enjoys excellent facilities currently, has our voice been heard - no; have we been able to have two way dialogue - no; dictate - yes; and by the way no golden goose here, just dedicated down-trodden volunteers. There is reference on this forum from a Management Committee member that he would be suprised if we had much to do!
This is reality not mischief. Any mischief might occur when we see facilities not as good as ours maintaining status when and if we get relegated for four months, and I have quite a long list to go at. Chip not me a whole bag full.
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Post by railwatcher on Nov 30, 2007 11:20:48 GMT 1
One final thing before I run off to the bank, Pyro we have been planning this work, in regular consultation with the FA Development officers since early 2006; I have asked two questions of people on this forum already as to how long they have been planning and construction took and deadlines - no reply.
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Post by gerrard720 on Nov 30, 2007 16:27:55 GMT 1
If CDM applies, you'll need a competent CDM/C - We'll take up the role for you. As for H&S in a public environment surrounded by construction - although on a major scale - look at Wimbledon, Twickenham, Anfield, Old Trafford, etc - ALL works carried out during a season or whilst activities are ongoing.
In all seriousness, we will happily help provide the role of CDM Co-ordinator if CDM does apply and I can do it at mates rates provided the company PI is covered with a nominal fee formally. It is achievable to manage the risk during a live running of a club, provided it's not pitch work.
One thing I can't achieve though is the budget. That side of things I sympathise with.
(oh, and I've got BLL's programme for the superstructure of Walbrook Square and the core's will be completed in 5 months once they're out of the ground)
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Post by ianh on Nov 30, 2007 17:00:27 GMT 1
Lets cut to the chase boys, enough sniping and mis-understandings. ;D you wouldnt know how to, just re-read what you have written in the paragraph above, I dont think you could write without sniping and insinuations. You are obviously not that well 'Informed' and have little grasp of reality, you act as if this is a personal assault, and make it sound as if you are a 'Champion of the little people' (down-trodden volunteers). You say 'Can I make it any Clearer',what in plain english are you trying to say? I dont know if you are referring to me when you said "There is reference on this forum from a Management Committee member that he would be suprised if we had much to do!" but not knowing who you are I couldnt have could i. So instead of predicting doom and gloom to all and sundry, just accept the offer of help, and maybe your acceptance and understanding would be an example to others
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Post by phoenix on Nov 30, 2007 17:17:40 GMT 1
If CDM applies, you'll need a competent CDM/C - We'll take up the role for you. As for H&S in a public environment surrounded by construction - although on a major scale - look at Wimbledon, Twickenham, Anfield, Old Trafford, etc - ALL works carried out during a season or whilst activities are ongoing. In all seriousness, we will happily help provide the role of CDM Co-ordinator if CDM does apply and I can do it at mates rates provided the company PI is covered with a nominal fee formally. It is achievable to manage the risk during a live running of a club, provided it's not pitch work. One thing I can't achieve though is the budget. That side of things I sympathise with. (oh, and I've got BLL's programme for the superstructure of Walbrook Square and the core's will be completed in 5 months once they're out of the ground) Hey Gerro, You're not the only CDMC on this Forum. Maybe I can undercut you? Seriously, the type of works we are looking at MAY fall within CDM confines (competency checks, F10, etc.) but mostly will not (classed as internal maintenance, concreting of small areas and installing /upgrading WC facilities. The contractors who are doing the work will still have to take safety measures particularly if it affects the safety of spectators on match days. (The grounds are normally empty the rest of the time.) Some clubs will think they can just put some tape up and that will do. If the clubs 'volunteers' do the work they will still be liable for safety. The grading doesn't just affect external items. Internally things such as wash basins and separate female officials facilities are also required. LOTS TO DO I THINK!
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Post by gerrard720 on Nov 30, 2007 17:39:10 GMT 1
2 geeks on the same forum!! Have our paths crossed in a professional sense Phoenix?? Plus I think you said you knew my brother, this is all getting a little coincidental!!
Undercut me all you like buddy, I've got a couple of projects that kind of consume my working life as it is!! Maybe double team it and help all the clubs out that do end up having CDM applicable projects for ground gradings.
Me thinks there be a little bit to earn here pal!
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Post by railwatcher on Dec 3, 2007 10:22:26 GMT 1
Well yes I am commenting as a downtrodden sort, not a champion of the little people (no offence taken, but colours are now on the mast, thought there ought to be more understanding than that?
And Ianh - no it was not you, I do know you to be better informed.
Help, well yes, we just need £ 160k it is very simple can you help?; doom and gloom, won't accept that not for a hobby anyhow!.
With £ 160 k - just for one club does £ 1m now look that unrealistic. I think I have a very sharp take on things actually.
To the other guys, thank you for your offer, but you both know we need to have those sorts of things in place already, which we have. See I might be quite well informed after all.
Good luck to all clubs by the way.
The end.
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Post by gerrard720 on Dec 3, 2007 12:05:25 GMT 1
Like I said in an earlier post. The one aspect of this whole process i dont empathise and understand the difficulties related to is the finance. Something I don't have up my sleeve I'm afraid.
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Post by ianh on Dec 3, 2007 14:53:17 GMT 1
Right, now thats finished, I don't know if this will be feasible, I would like to offer help on understanding of Ground Grading over this forum, most people are signed in anonymously, but PM if you would rather. I have been to places and spoken to people and although the FA guidelines are on the Internet and in the back of the UCL handbook, some guidelines are still a bit unclear (EG a metre of hard standing with a floodlight in the middle, will not allow a metre access) So, if I can help, I will try Thanks
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